A Coastal Christian Interview with Pastors Matthew Southall Brown, Sr., Dale Dyar, and Jim Lewis
Coastal Christian: Martin Luther King, Jr. once wrote: “It is appalling that the most segregated hour in Christian America is eleven o’clock on Sunday morning.” Why in 2011 do his words still apply?
Pastor Matthew Brown, Sr.: Let me begin by saying because of what is taking place now in the city (Savannah, Ga) in terms of divisiveness, there is a deep and abiding need for people to come together in worship. We have not crowned our efforts with success in trying to do away with the idea of people not worshipping together but worshipping in their own churches . . . I think that if we can really deal with segregated churches, we will then begin to really deal with divisive communities. Just reading the papers and what is happening now in Savannah is a great concern to me. I just did not realize that this city was as divided as it is.
Pastor Jim Lewis: I agree with Dr. King, but the reality is that laws and policies can restrain racism, but if it is going to be dealt with effectively, it has to be seen from a biblical perspective, which says three words: racism is sin.
If we look at it from a biblical perspective that means we’ve got to
have a change of heart. When we are born again God gives us a new heart but that does not guarantee walking in obedience in all things. And I think the church has failed in not bringing that understanding from the scripture. You deal with racism as we do with any sin. But you can’t truly repent from something that you don’t perceive to be wrong. If it’s not a sin, you can’t come to that place of being convicted.… I admit there are some white folks who cannot see. They do not have eyes to see. Jesus said unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, and that would mean more immediately, you can’t understand it. And there is no better understanding of not understanding the Kingdom of God than racism among believers. All God’s children have to have eyes. If we are committed to the Lord, if we see something that is sin, it is not a sociological issue, it is sin, so we deal with that sin as we do any other sin.
Pastor Dale Dyar: I have to agree that the root problem is sin, but it is also something that has been handed down from generation to generation. How segregated our family was has taught us that segregation is o.k. I also believe that people have not fully understood true biblical worship and the writing of Paul in Galations 3:28, that there is neither Greek nor Jew, male nor female. We are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus… it seems to be that people are either afraid to come together or either they have not understood the true benefit of what it means to God to come together under one roof and worship the Lord in spirit and in truth.
Coastal Christian: Racism has been described as a social and cultural problem rather than one of individual failing. How does this perspective impact people‘s choice of worship centers?
Pastor Jim Lewis: I don’t want to take away the corporate or the cultural; it is there also. But it gets confirmation and it is cuddled in these arenas. We pound away about the sins of the flesh, but we don’t discuss the sins of the heart and racism is a sin of the heart. It has to do with a flawed understanding of God making mankind in His image.
Coastal Christian: Pastor Brown mentioned racism in relation to what is going on in our city now. Do you think that racism is rooted in fear—fear of who is in charge and the possibility that some of us won’t get what we need?
Pastor Jim Lewis: Yes, I think fear is the engine of racism in that sense of loss and control. Our current situation with the city is a living metaphor.
Pastor Matthew Brown, Sr.: We need to really analyze what racism is. Racism is an evil. And truthfully there are a lot of us in the pulpit who go along with it. We go along with it for economic reasons, to maintain a certain kind of membership, to maintain numbers, or to maintain a certain status.
For example, when we built our new church on Hartridge St. after the old church burned, and that neighborhood
began to change… I thought to myself… how could we really encourage the people who were moving into the neighborhood to attend or to come and
And then later on all the SCAD students started moving around the church and I thought with them being young people and not culturally trained as you mentioned, they would have no problems attending the church. But the
SCAD students didn’t come, and I was really surprised at that because I thought we had a very good program to attract young people. The church was attracting young blacks but not young whites. So I made a proposal that we put some whites on our staff starting with a white Assistant (pastor) and of course that didn’t go very far. –chuckles. – And then I saw too, that yes there was racism in St. John.*
But what causes racism in the church? Are we the cause—those of us who stand in the pulpit every Sunday? I listen to a lot of my colleagues who are white and seldom do we really tackle this problem of racism. We talk about it in a group like this, but when we get before the people who really need to hear it, we don’t make the application… We are all from one blood line. God has created all men from the same blood line to inhabit the earth… Dr. King stated that the most segregated hour is the 11:00 a.m. Sunday morning hour. Dr. King was true then, and Dr. King is true now.
*Pastor Brown, Sr. is Pastor emeritus of St. John Baptist Church
Coastal Christian: Pastor Brown you said something about really understanding the core issues. Do you think this inability for some people–– and possibly at certain age levels– to worship together is tied to the history of these two groups? Maybe for some white people the memory of what their forefathers did is too much for them. And for African Americans the anger that gets passed from one generation to the next… when we look at each other that history is always there on one level or another.
Pastor Jim Lewis: I am Caucasian and that never crossed my mind– the memories. I mean I know bad things were done, which makes me think about Myles Monroe, who is a great preacher and teacher of God’s word and he is my brother. Well, let me just say something about the Mission (Savannah City) here. We have five mission objectives: preaching, rehabilitating, feeding, sheltering, and restoring. But I always say we have two charges to keep… One of these is to seek the unity of the body of Christ; the second one is to preach and teach that racism is sin. And I say that publicly because I believe it. You are absolutely right, Pastors need to man up and preach the whole counsel of God. I appreciate the fact that both of you (Coastal Christian and Brown, Sr) have mentioned racism as being a shared experience. Billy Graham said that racism is the most universal of all sins and from what I have seen it has been in every culture and I think it’s evidence of the primary strategy of the enemy, which is to divide and conquer. He wants to divide. And sometimes we are just handing him the materials rather than saying, ‘Folks, we are going to live by God’s word.’
Pastor Dale Dyar: Here at Coastal Cathedral we don’t make racism an issue. We have learned to appreciate each other’s culture. For example, we honor Martin Luther King Day. When I first came here, we never acknowledged that but I felt that since we have 50/50 here, we should. So our atmosphere here is wholesome. We strive not to make it an issue. We appreciate Hispanics; we acknowledge that we are all different and that variety is good. We also demonstrate that in our leadership level. We don’t stack the odds either way. We try intentionally to keep a balance so that prejudice doesn’t rise up. We just learn to love and appreciate. Even though it exists; we know it’s there, but if I harp on it, I feel like I am drawing the line.
Coastal Christian: Pastor Dyar, you are an excellent and charismatic preacher, but really do you think that if you were an African American male, that your church would be racially balanced? Do you really think that Caucasians would remain?
Pastor Dale Dyar: Yes, I believe it would remain racially balanced. I listen to Black pastors and White pastors. I get educated on how they preach and meet the needs of different cultures and through that I gain insight. I believe that’s why mega-churches are working. Pastors are learning from each other. I would never aspire to go back to an all white church and preach to all white people. And my prayer is I would never have to do it because we (Coastal Cathedral) are multi-cultural and we celebrate that. We want people to know we are that way.
Coastal Christian: So are you saying that the mega-churches have tapped into some ingredient that somewhat solves the Sunday morning issue?
Pastor Matthew Brown, Sr. : I want to respond to that. First, let me extend a congratulations to Coastal Cathedral. And my colleague Pastor Dyar. You have done a good job in bringing the races together, but there is a deeper concern that I have. I have known former pastors of this church –and I have been friends with all of the pastors since 1969—we’ve talked.
There has always been a boast of how many African Americans attend Coastal Cathedral. So I asked one of the pastors, what positions do they hold in Coastal Cathedral and of course later that pastor came to me very gleefully telling me that one person had been appointed to the board. The mega-church seems to be attracting whites but really most white people come to black churches not really for worship; they come for entertainment. This has been documented.
Traditionally, Blacks have been entertainers. Now early on when white churches began integrating their churches, they would deliberately throw the camera on the choir so that you could see the two or three black people singing in the choir. Now that was alright for the congregation because you know music is our thing, but what I am talking about is totally integrating the churches,… that would include chairmen of committees, the treasurer, not just singers. Now it’s getting so that ushers are being seen in white churches. I believe that we are scratching the surface. We are beginning to get where the Lord wants us to be. But I believe that most whites who go to mega- churches go not really for worship but for entertainment. Now… I don’t want to believe it but when I have talked to some of the fellows who are of the same statue as let’s say someone like Creflo Dollar, they have the same feeling—that whites do not come in to work out their soul salvation. I guess that is something that we are going to have to deal with before we can really deal with the racism and Dr. King’s statement.
Coastal Christian: Well, that takes it all back to racism being an individual issue–that we all have to change even if it’s one person at a time.
Pastor Jim Lewis: It has always been one at a time. I noticed that Pastors Dyar and Brown have used the terms intentional and deliberate and if this is going to be addressed there has to be that commitment. We do have to go on record and call it for what it is. There is kind of a myth of this country being a melting pot. Peter Wagner of Fuller University says America is not a melting pot; it’s a stew pot and what gives flavor to a stew is that it has carrots, onions, potatoes; they’re all together, yet they have their distinctiveness and some of us make the mistake of
being like The Jerk in the movie – the white guy trying to dance. You (pointing to Pastor Brown) say you bring the music and it is that diversity that is natural when the Holy Spirit is flowing. When people are in the spirit, they are not experiencing their distinctiveness; they are experiencing unity. And the answers are going to come when we are moving in heartfelt response to the Holy Spirit and God’s promises that He will give his Holy Spirit to those that obey Him. The Holy Spirit is a new dimension that rises above all of our efforts to make this thing happen.
Pastor Dale Dyar: I think that one of the biggest mistakes we as spiritual leaders make is just like my brother just said. We don’t take it outside of the four walls. What needs to happen is this city needs to see spiritual fathers come together and worship together and be the model. That would please the Lord more than anything else. I know there have been attempts to do that, but just small pockets. When I came to this city Floyd Adams was mayor and he was trying to get the churches to come together. Even though there was resistance to his efforts, what he did was a premier introduction to this city for me– that we had a mayor that wanted to see these churches come together, and I wish we would get back to that because I believe that is the key that will unlock a lot of stuff in the inner city… One of my greatest experiences would be to go into the inner city and preach a week’s revival… what I notice most of all in the black churches is that they have a reference and an honor for the man of God. And you don’t find that in white churches. The most respect I get is from the Black culture because they have been reared that you reference the pastor. To me they help the rest of my church get to another level that they have never seen and most of my white people will admit that the Blacks honor and reference their pastor more so than they do.
Coastal Christian: So in that sense they bring something much greater than entertainment.
Pastor Matthew Brown, Sr.: I recall when Southern Baptist Churches would have Race Relations Sunday. You guys remember that? It really wasn’t a serious effort to stamp out racism or to bring races together, or to really have solidly integrated churches. Once a year typically a white pastor would invite a black pastor to preach at his church and vice versa. I have been a part of that and I guess my age would tell you that I’ve “been there and done that.” I have to pay tribute to one of my colleagues though, and that is Pastor John Bean, Sr.. John Bean was director of the Baptist Center downtown. John did more to stamp out racism in churches than any white brother I knew. His son is Judge Bean. When I came to St. John in 1969, he sent his assistant to me to introduce herself and to invite me to their church. John and my relationship was such that when he died, I preached his funeral at Calvary Baptist Church (chuckling). Of course, that was his request. But what I want to do as an African American clergyman, I want to see us come together, not so much integrating congregations, but come together as black and white pastors; let us talk about it. Let us repent of our sins because there is enough blame to go around. Let us repent and then let us do what we can with our congregations. We have what we call IMA– Interdenominational Ministers Association. But Interdenominational has been predominantly black from its inception. The only white clergy we had was John Beam. There is a lot of work to do with this issue before Jesus comes back to this earth. And he said he is coming back to a church without spot or wrinkle, and if we got this spot on us, I wonder what his reaction is going to be.
Coastal Christian: O.K. Does anyone have a closing comment?
Pastor Jim Lewis: I have a comment. Psalm 133. How good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity… It is delicious to dwell together in unity. I would imagine that we have all been in that spot where there was genuine unity. It wasn’t produced by the will of man. It was the will of God as we responded and it is absolutely delicious—harmony. … When we get in the flow of the spirit of God we will be flowing together. I have experienced this. When you are in that place where there is a move of the Spirit of God, an inviting of God’s presence, then we can take it beyond the walls because we have lived there. We can abide in that place.
Pastor Dale Dyar: The heart of God is for us to come together; for us to get past the walls that were handed down to us through our parents and grandparents; for us to be the people of God and come to the place where we don’t see color. We see each other as creations made in the image of God. I just wish and hope and pray we can come to that before the Lord returns because there is nothing I believe would please Him more. ■